FINDING FAULT

 

I'm up for a challenge.

Robert the apoplectic sinner said this in his latest post:

He also said, in a comment on my last post:

"So if the only reason you are not Catholic is because catholics are human and sinners then welcome back to the church! Obviously you have no problem with the Creed."

Can I find fault in the catholic creed?

Can I find fault in the basic premise of the catholic church?

Here goes:

It starts with the Nicene Creed - which is kind of like the minutes of a meeting had by church elders in the 4th century:

NICENE CREED (Professed at Sunday Mass) 

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father; God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God; begotten not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation He came down from heaven. By the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary and became man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate. He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again, in fulfillment of the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son He is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the prophets. We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen. 

This is shortened to The Apostles Creed for users who obviously have a bit of attention span deficit going on:

APOSTLE'S CREED (used with the holy rosary).

 I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He arose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of God, the Father almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen. 

There's also a very long bit of nonsense known as The Athanasian Creed which has the same stuff as the others have but is stretched out a bit in an attempt to show it is a serious piece of work. It certainly is a piece of something. It differs from the Nicene and Apostles' creeds in the inclusion of anathemas or condemnations of those who disagree with the creed.

ATHANASIAN CREED

 1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; 2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. 3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; 4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance. 5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. 6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. 7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. 8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. 9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. 10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. 11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal. 12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. 13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty. 14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. 15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; 16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. 17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; 18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord. 19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; 20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords. 21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. 22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten. 23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. 24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. 25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another. 26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal. 27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. 28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity. 29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. 30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man. 31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world. 32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. 33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood. 34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ. 35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God. 36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. 37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; 38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; 39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty; 40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. 41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies; 42. and shall give account of their own works. 43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. 44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

OK so far?

Tempting as it is to go through each 'argument' of the Athanasian Creed and put in refutes, there is only so much time available to us all and we have other things to do. Maybe Robert will enlighten us. I've decided to pick on analyse the shortest of the three - the Apostle's Creed.

APOSTLE'S CREED 

 I believe in God - well, sorry but I don't but, to be fair, the people who recite this probably do.

.. the Father Almighty - OK, who gave this geezer that accolade? As Robert would say "where's the proof?",

 Creator of heaven and earth - no, that is supposition not fact and in reality is, well, unreal or false. Moving on ...

 and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord - no, no I don't. See the opening comment. Why a capital H in his? Who made him a lord? Where did he come from?

 who was conceived by the Holy Spirit - oh, there you go but what's this Holy spirit thing? Is it another figment of someone's imagination?

born of the Virgin Mary - oookaay. So this holy spirit 'conceived' Jesus although I think that they meant impregnated the recipient Mary and she conceived - but, hold on - it says that Mary is or was a virgin at the time. I can go along with that but it seems that after penetration, conception and impregnation she remained a virgin. Sure, sure, you're putting me on.

suffered under Pontius Pilate - true but a bit of historical explanation via footnotes would be handy here. Pontius Pilate was the Roman Governor of Judaea in the time of Jesus Christ and represented the power of Rome which was overseeing the Judaean kingdom nominally headed up by Herod. When Jesus rode into Jerusalem proclaiming himself King it was a direct threat and challenge to both Judaea and Rome so, not that I'm condoning it, Jesus had to be suppressed by Rome. Ok, moving on ...

was crucified, died, and was buried.  - yep, there are enough historical records to show that. It's nice to finally get a bit of truth and facts going ..... whoah! .....

 ......... He descended into hell - where did that come from? What's hell? Do you have to go down to it? How do you get there - on an escalator?

 the third day He arose again from the dead - now it's just getting silly, not that it wasn't earlier. What were those Nicean conference delegates smoking?

 He ascended into heaven - What? How the hell (sorry) did he do that" What's heaven" Why is it up? How do you get there? Is there an up as well as a down escalator. I'm sorry but there seems to be a lot of stuff in here that hasn't been explained and defies logic.

 sits at the right hand of God, the Father almighty - there's that god guy again, still proclaiming to be almighty which is a self-granted accolade.

from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead - wow! that stuff they smoked must have been laced with an hallucinogenic. Jesus is supposed to come to earth again and not only judge the living but also the dead? I'd like to see that happen. Really, I would like to see that.

 I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen. 

- yeah, the initial flashes of crazy inspiration seems to have deserted the fabricators of this and, like Alistair Maclean does with his novels, there is a hurry to get to the end so a whole heap of unsubstantiated stuff gets tossed in, in pretence of conclusion.

"Can I find fault in the creed?" asked Robert. Hell yes.

Can I find fault in the basic premise of the catholic church? Well, if the 'basic premise' is based on the above ridiculous premise then - hell yes.